This is the M4 you're looking for...

"El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First!" (lightningzone) 08/10/2013 at 19:27 • Filed to: None

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GhostZ > El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First! 08/10/2013 at 20:00

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This sounds like the worst possible idea, ever, and in no way can this car compete with the M4. Based on the article, not only are they completely different price markets, but there is virtually no appeal I can see in this car.

Hear me out: I like the look of the LFA, it's clean and purposeful. This concept is ugly, and looks like a manager came to a designer and said "People love the look of the new Corvette and BRZ, and the GT-R says "Japanese sports-luxury". Scrap what you did before, make our car look like that so we can be part of that cool club too!"

But here is what I don't understand when a comparison is made to the M4. We both know that the M4 is going to come in under 6 figures easily (probably close to 6-70,000) and be higher performing than this thing. I'm not really sure if I can possibly believe that this will actually be over $100,000, and I wouldn't, if it wasn't the same thing that happened to the LFA's pricetag. That much price inflation is now pushing into XK-R, Maserati Granturismo, GT-R, 911/911 Turbo, SLS AMG, and M6 pricing. All of which are more beautiful, faster (judging on stats) and with a better history of luxury and performance than this.

The difference with the LFA is that some of its technology was actually unprecedented. This looks like the same old Lexus parts in a new body.

I feel like this is going to be another one of Lexus's lukewarm attempts at a halo car that has massive R/D costs, has them lose money even when exorbitantly overpriced, sticks around for a few years, sells less than a few thousand, and then gets killed because it wasn't appreciated.

AddMustard > El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First! 08/10/2013 at 20:15

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Ignoring any comparisons, this is a beautiful car.

pianomanzero > GhostZ 08/10/2013 at 20:24

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Yanno, I'm saying this as a Toyota fan, albeit a fan of Toyota of yesteryear: Lexus disappoints me.
Toyota used to create some truly fun and fantastic cars, and not just cars for the geriatric set or for those for whom a car is just another appliance.
I really love old Celicas and Corollas, I drive an 85 Celica GT-S convertible as my daily driver, and I want to add at least two more to the stable in the coming years.
What keeps me coming back to these cars as an early thirtysomething (I dunno, do I qualify as a millennial? I was born in 81) is the spirit, style and gusto these cars had back then. They're an absolute joy to drive, easy to take care of and maintain, and allow me to have a responsible amount of fun with what can be a daily driver.
There isn't a Lexus (or any new Toyota, if we leave out the Toyobaru) that can do that for me, and I've been in the unique situation to have driven several. The last Lexus that I really enjoyed was an SC with the six cylinder and a manual transmission.
Don't get me wrong, I'm willing to try this new kid on the block and give it a fair shake, but for the price point (100k seems a little high, I'm wondering if it'll be more like 70k) I'd just as soon sink that cash into a Supra or even importing a Skyline.
I'm not gonna hold my breath for an awesome Lexus (or for that matter, a new Supra).
Anyways, just my 2c in the matter and YMMV.

pianomanzero > pianomanzero 08/10/2013 at 20:27

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Also, I'm getting kinda tired of Lexuses reminding me of other cars, haha! Is it just me or do several seem to be a mishmash of stylings from other cars (for example, this one kind of reminds me of GTR meets TT or something along those lines)

El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First! > GhostZ 08/10/2013 at 20:39

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They don't aim for ES numbers with the RC-F, it is a low volume car, a halo model for the IS and RC lines, and for Lexus itself, until they launch a GS-F and a new SC. You don't have to go for the full pizza RC-F, you can get it with the 2 liter turbo for 40k, that should be good enough.

j.davism5 > pianomanzero 08/10/2013 at 20:43

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Spent much seat time in an is-f? I've done track days in them, matched up against mates in HSV's e92 M3 sedans, and RS4s. The IS-F is a great drive, it's faster than an M3 in a straight line, and it's turn in is limited by 235 fronts. As soon as you swap the front rubber for 255's the on track equation changes dramatically. It's also built to do track work all day every day for the rest of it's life. I had an E39 M5, and as much as I loved it, and it's still my favourite car I've owned, I knew that if I pushed too hard for too long, or got a flash tune that moved the redline by 500Rpm, there would be pistons and rods outside the block. Having spent time with Yaguchi san, chief engineer of is-f, I can tell you that IS-F would be good for another 50Kw by just moving the rev limiter and freeing up exhaust. They did it in testing, and it was safe, but the design brief was to make a car that would last 300,000km of punishment, and still ask for more.

I wonder if oppo would exist without Lexus hate. I think it would collapse into itself like a black hole without it....

GhostZ > j.davism5 08/11/2013 at 06:17

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The IS-F is a different animal. It cost around that of an M3, had 4 doors, and had serious performance credibility to back it up. The car that they are pushing in this article would basically be an IS-F with less usability, but almost no increase in performance. The problem was that it was marketed terribly and no one bought it, because at that time, Lexus's entire marketing budget went into showing off the LFA and their new hybrid technology, completely ignored what was quite possibly the best car they had made in years.

As for the upgrades, that's nothing to brag about. Most modern (4v DOHC) V8s have that capacity, especially US ones. Consider that the Ford Mustang Coyote engine gains about 32HP/25kw from just putting a new Ford Racing intake (and not even a high-priced one) on it, without even touching exhaust or redline. N/A gains from exhaust, intake, and tunes, usually yield around an extra 70 HP (50kw) easily on that motor, and it's not the only US V8 like that.

Most modern engines can get to 300,000 miles without a problem, if they're taken care of properly. I bet you that I can irreparably blow that IS-F motor in under 3000 miles if I wanted to. Toyota is just good at idiot-proofing their cars.

I really don't have hate for Lexus, I have hate for about 90% of their cars. I like the other 10%. The OP's concept fits in that 90% group.

GhostZ > pianomanzero 08/11/2013 at 06:19

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The front fender is taken from a GT-R, the rear from a FR-S/BRZ, the hood from a Corvette.

GhostZ > pianomanzero 08/11/2013 at 06:27

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They need to dump that V8. It's nice that they built it, but it's no more impressive than the other 100,000 DOHC 4v V8s on the market, and their R/D on the direct injection, intake, and a few other clever bits probably explain why it's so expensive to produce.

They either need to hit 100HP/liter with that V8, which puts it on par with the M3 S65 and give it numbers worthy of its price, or put a lighter twin-turbo straight six or V6 in the car. No one would blame them, given how good the GT-R's engine is. But I think they're marketing to the type of people who still think that all V8s are more powerful than a V6, and are definitely more powerful than a "V4".

j.davism5 > GhostZ 08/11/2013 at 08:30

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I should clarify that I'm talking at the treads. And at that, with a warranty. Remember, that means the diff, the gearbox etc are all able to hack it. However, granted, the current crop of v8's is impressive. But this is an engine in production since late 06, early 07. At that time, a 5.4L Blown mustang made 500hp. Had some heat soak problems on the track to boot I believe. E60 M5 is making that same 500hp, with the same torque figures as that 5.0 v8. I don't hear anyone crying out how terrible that engine was considering it's capacity. Yes s62 in the E92 achieved the 'magical' 100bhp per ton mark, but also suffered the same torque fate of 100NM per litre. With the adition of VVTi, in 1997, Toyota/lexus were getting 407NM out of the 4.0L 1UZ, an engine designed in the 80's. I'd be confident in saying that the 1UZ will outlast s62 when it comes down to the miles. So now the 311kw 505NM 2UR GSE doesn't look to bad for it's time. As for the Coyote, you're right. Massive potential in that engine. Click on my avatar and you'll see a 12' 302. It's mine, and it's RHD. Seeing as I'm in australia and all, it cost me the best part of 150k USD, so I'm commited to the product. However, It's bone stock, and after only 25000km and 5 track days, The factory oil cooler developed cracks and leaked, and the VCT pin on the left bank broke and locked at full advance, causing the engine to shut of the bank entirley, and limp home after 9 laps. I have a strict policy of 3 laps on, 1 cool down lap. Then there is the MT82 manual trans that locks out 3rd, and once you're 100hp over the factory tune and they hand grenade. My IS-F company car did more track days, in my hands, and those of the ham fisted general public, with more abuse, and it was sold with a change of brake pads and a warranty. Short of putting sand in the oil (used to be common practice with trade in's over there right ;) I doubt you'll kill it. And as for the less practical, what about e92 vs e90? even better, m4 got 2 doors, is it useless? This car may only have 455hp. it may have more. 100k sounds more like my price, rather than yours, considering an Ls460 over there is on the 100k mark, and over here they are 235k. All the info I can find points to m4 being less torque and power out of (granted) smaller engine than RC-F and I'd think they would be the same price point. If they make it dynamically as sharp as 86, this could be a great car. After all, power is nothing without control. That's why the Boss 302 is the better car when it comes to the GT500. I don't mean to come across as an ass, but it gets tiring coming on here and seeing people hate on Lexus because it wasn't aimed/designed for them, and when they have a go, throw it out as if it will be another Corrola white good, or a failed attempt by a manufacturer that knows nothing about performance and enjoyment cars.

j.davism5 > j.davism5 08/11/2013 at 08:54

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Also, check the specs on the 2UR in the LS TMG. 641hp is fair potential for the engine.

GhostZ > j.davism5 08/11/2013 at 09:48

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You're completely right and I agree with you about the IS-F. I love the IS-F, I think it's the best Lexus made in years, but you're missing my point about this new concept:

The Lexus V8 is good and impressive for a $50-60k (US) car, which would put it in direct competition with the M4.

The Lexus V8 is not impressive for a 100k (US) car, which is 1 60% of the M4's price over here. That means it's real BMW competitor is not the M4 (like the article keeps suggesting) but really its the M6, which sits at a cool 560HP.

The performance on paper looks like it could challenge the M4, but it's not even close to the same market. $40,000 is a huge difference for non-supercars.

The article is deceptive, and it comes as no surprise because this is exactly what Lexus did when the LFA's prices bloated out of control. They compared it to the GT-R, and lo and behold, the LFA was a little faster. But it also was at least 7 times more expensive. They should have been comparing it to a Zonda.

I have no hate for Lexus because they are boring or under-performing. It's because every exciting car they build is woefully overpriced because they can't do R/D properly (LFA), or it gets ignored, poorly marketed, and destroyed by the company that built it. (IS-F). If they can't find a way to drop the price of the RC-F, it's going to do the same thing.

pianomanzero > j.davism5 08/11/2013 at 12:13

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Nope, I haven't had the opportunity for seat time in an IS-F, and I'll tell you why in the form of allegory.

I lived for a number of years in Vancouver, BC, a city which was very good to me and gave me some of the best years of my life.

Being a hockey fanatic to the core (during the season, if I'm not playing hockey, I'm watching it) I became a die-hard a fan of the Vancouver Canucks while I was there, and I still am to this day despite living a thousand miles away. I take my fair share of shit for being a Canucks fan living in Utah, where we don't have an NHL team and team loyalties range across the board (my wife-to-be is a die hard Penguins fan, so we're a house divided during hockey season).

The Canucks could be and have the potential to be the best team in the league, if they could sort out just a few problems. They have the talent, they have the experience, and they have the right mix of players, but the very correctable problems they suffer from are complete deal breakers and game losers, and the net big-picture result is they play like a pretty average NHL team.

Every now and again they play some mind-blowing hockey, but it's unfortunately and frequently offset by spectacular failures.

Every now and then they have some spectacular successes (winning the President's Cup and narrowly losing in the Stanley Cup Finals to the Boston Bruins in 2011, for example) and often some spectacular failures (having their asses handed to them/knocked out in the first series of the very next season, for example).

Despite my love for the Canucks, I'm very critical of them because of their shortcomings. It's not hating on them, it's not tearing them down, it's a natural frustration that they can't get their shit together on a consistent basis. I'm critical of them because I know they can do better; I've seen this team do better.

But, even being a die-hard fan, you can only hold your breath for so long; your loyalty doesn't change, but you become accustomed to being let down.

Now, how does this play into the IS-F? I'm glad you asked.

I would love nothing more than to go to another Canucks game. On that front, I have a few options open to me. I could drive to Vancouver, see the game, and drive back, but I really can't spare a week of driving to see a hockey game and the 1000 mile journey really isn't worth the expense. I could always fly in, see the game and fly home. The airfare is between $250-$400, depending on the time of year and how far out I book it. Not exactly chump change, but still within affordability if I plan well in advance. I could also wait for them to play the Avalanche and see them there. That's the least expensive option; it only costs about $225, including the flight in and the ticket for admissions, but I have to deal with the rabid Avs fans and the possibility of being shanked for wearing my blue jersey. It's also not giving me the full experience. I'd much rather see them in Vancouver, see my old home again, and spend time in friendly company while I'm there.

Now that I've settled my travel plans, and now that I've decided to get the full experience and see a game in Vancouver, I have to find a ticket for the game.

I want the best seat possible, so I have a look at some of the best seats.

YIKES! Almost $400 per seat! That brings my theoretical total to $800, not including hotel accommodations, food, etc etc. The cost for a trip like this (and I know because I've made this trip before) can be as high as $2,000. That's a whole damn paycheck.

For a hockey game. For one person.

If I'm gonna drop that kind of money on a trip to see my team, I want to do it when I'm relatively sure I'm gonna be able to see them win while I'm there. I'm gonna hold off on another trip up there until they've had a couple good seasons. yeah, the price might go up a little, but that's a risk I'm willing to take. I'm not going to drop that kind of change on my team, no matter how much I love them, to see them get their asses handed to them. It doesn't make me any less of a fan to want to maximize my experience and get the most for my money.

Now, lets say that I've entered a contest for two tickets to see a game, and I've won. That's great, that knocks a bit off the total cost to see a game, and it makes it a bit more likely that I'll attend.

Now lets say that same contest is gonna fly me out and put me up in a halfway decent hotel as well. You bet your ass I'm gonna go, regardless of whether they're having a good season.

My feelings towards Toyota/Lexus are the same; I'm not going to invest in them until they've put the effort into winning me back, plain and simple. It doesn't make me any less of a fan.

As stated, I am a huge Toyota fan, albeit my love is primarily for their older cars for reasons already stated, and as stated, the Toyobaru is a great step in the right direction for winning someone like me back.

I don't need some goddamn halo car that loses gobfulls of money for every one sold, and I bet if you ask other enthusiasts of my same age and income level they'll tell you the same thing; they'll tell you they'd take a Toyobaru, a Celica/Corolla/Supra of yesteryear if they were to produce such a thing. Even now, a Mk IV Supra holds much more value to me than an IS-F on any day of the week, rain or shine; if I have $50k I'm not going to spend it on a car that may or not be a winner (and I'm not going to simply buy one on a test drive and a starry-eyed review from someone on the interwebs). Even looking at used ones here locally, I'm still looking at $35-$40k, give or take. There's one locally that's just under $30k, but it's got nearly 70k miles on it. For that kind of cash I can have a MkIV Supra in great shape, low miles and with plenty of cash to spare for maintenance and upkeep or upgrades (hell, for the cost of a new IS-F I can have TWO plus some leftover).

Now having said that, let's just say for a moment for the sake of argument that someone let me borrow their IS-F on an extended loan, say maybe a week. You bet your ass I'd jump on the opportunity, and I'd give it a fair and honest shake. Hell, I'd even do a write up and a video on it and even publicly eat every last one of my words if I ended up really liking it.

It all comes down to accessibility. Just like I'd jump at the chance to go to a Vancouver game, given the right circumstances, I'd jump at the chance to put some quality time in with an IS-F. Until then, it's not even on my radar.

It's not Lexus hate. Embarrassing as it is to admit, it's probably butt-hurt more than anything; I'm frustrated that (until the Toyobaru) Toyota and co. can't or won't build something like the Celicas, Corollas, MR-2s, and Supras of bygone years; I'm frustrated that the brand that built the cars that excited me in my youth is now so closely associated and well known for producing cars for people who hold no more value to their car as they would their refrigerator or their gas range, who see it as an appliance, a necessary evil, who hold no intrinsic value for their cars whatsoever, people for whom the most spirited thing they've done with their car is brake hard for the neighbor's dog or roll through a stop sign.

I know that explanation is probably overly long-winded, but I really don't know of another way to explain the frustration I feel towards the subject. I'm critical of Toyota/Lexus not because I hate them, but because I'm rooting for them, because I see their potential to produce awesome and accessible cars alongside their current line-up for people who could care less. It probably comes off as hate, because when one gets to a certain point of holding your breath for something it starts to sound like tongue-in-cheek criticism. I'm willing to bet I'm not alone in this sentiment.

Anyways, thanks for reading if you made it this far and thanks for letting me vent a little.